Notes:

"..Joan Menteith, whom you show as the wife of Malise 7th Earl ofStrathearn and as the mother of Malise 8th Earl. The article at SP 8:251says that Joan and the 7th Earl were childless, and CP says that themother of Malise 8th Earl was the first wife of the 7th Earl and that hername is not recorded. CP 12 (part 2) 385. Joan was apparently ageneration younger than her first husband as CP as cited next above saysthat she married him around 1323 and that Malise the 8th Earl succeededhis father between 1323 and 1329.

It is true as you show that Mary of Strathearn, daughter of Malise 8thEarl of Strathearn and Marjory of Ross married John (of Drumsargard)Moray, but this marriage came too late for her to have been the mother ofSir Maurice (9th Earl of Strathearn) Moray. The SP article cited nextabove at 387-388 says that Maurice was more probably born from a priorwife of his father. It points out that Maurice was one of the Scottishleaders who in 1335 rejected terms of peace offered by Edward III. Thedate of Mary of Strathearn's marriage to Maurice was between 1319 and1322. The article concludes on this point saying she could hardly havebeen the mother of grown men in 1335. The article also points out that,when Maurice had dispensation for his marriage to Joan Menteith, Countessof Strathearn and widow of the 7th Earl, on 11 July 1339, no mention wasmade of the 7th Earl, who, if Mary was Maurice's mother, would have beenhis grandfather. I add the comment that Maurice's bride would also havebeen his stepgrandmother.

On this issue, SP 8:255-256 says that there is no evidence on which onecan validly determine the identity of Maurice's mother, and that thefacts indicate that she was probably an earlier wife of Maurice'sfather. It explains that the date of the marriage to John (ofDrumsargard) Moray can be established by the dates of various propertytransfers to him and to the heirs of Mary between 1318 and 1322. MauriceMoray is first named on record in 1335 as one of the leaders of thepatriotic party in Scotland, and he was among those who rejected terms ofpeace offered them by Edward III. A chronicler stated that in 1335,Maurice Moray slew Godfrey Ross because, through trickery, he had killedMaurice's brother in what was supposed to have been a fair fight. Itseems clear that, if Mary was Maurice's mother, he could not have beenborn until after 1318, which would have made him, at most, 16 years oldin 1335, hardly old enough to have revenged the slaying of a brother andto be serving as a political leader. Further, the article says that, on2 December 1336, King Edward Baliol of Scotland granted the barony ofDrumsargard and all the lands of Maurice de Moravia on the South of theFourth to Anthony de Lucy as Maurice was then an enemy and rebel. Thesefacts show that Maurice had probably already inherited his father'spossessions and was already a well-established landowner by 1336,indicating that he was of age and certainly not a teen-age boy.

Additionally, when Maurice obtained a dispensation in 1339 to marry JoanMenteith, she was two times a widow having married first, about 1323,Malise, seventh Earl of Strathearn. Assuming that she was 18 at the timeof her first marriage, she would have been 34 when she married Maurice.If he was about the same age as his bride, he would have been born in1305, whereas Mary of Strathearn did not marry Maurice's father until atleast 1318! In summary, the facts do strongly support the point thatMaurice's mother was an earlier unidentified wife of John (of Drumargard)Moray."

From Douglas Hickling, Dhhic@comcast.net, 516 Blair Avenue, Piedmont, CA94611. 1 February 2002

SP=THE SCOTS PEERAGE was edited by James (Sir) Balfour Paul. 9 volumes.Volume 1 published in 1904 and volume 8 in 1911. Volume 9, before 1925(includes the index)

CP= THE COMPLETE PEERAGE
Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain & theUnited
Kingdom : by G. E. Cokayne (Hardcover - March 2001]

Family/Spouse: John (Earl of Atholl) Campbell. John (son of Nigel (Sir)(Or Niel of Lochow) Campbell and Mary (of Carrick) Bruce) was born about 1313; died on 19 Jul 1333 in Battle Of Halidon Hill. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Family/Spouse: William (King 5th Earl of Sutherland) De Moravia. William (son of Kenneth (4th Earl of Sutherland) De Moravia and Marjory\Mary of Mar) died about 1371. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. Robert (6th Earl of Sutherland) De Moravia was born about 1347; died in 1427.

Joanna married Malise 7Th Earl of Strathearn about 1323. Malise (son of Malise 6th Earl of Strathearn and Agnes (Egidia) Comyn) died between 1323 and 1329. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Joanna married Sir Maurice (9th Earl of Strathearn) Moray on 11 Jul 1339. Maurice (son of Sir John (of Drumsargard) Moray and Mary of Strathearn) was born about 1305; died in 1346 in Neville's Cross. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. Joan\Johana (of Strathearn) Moray was born about 1350; died in Aug 1409 in Threave Castle, Galloway; was buried in Aug 1429.

Notes:

Doug Hickling. Dhhic@comcast.net, points out that in
A HISTORY OF THE CLAN CAMPBELL vol. I, by Alastair Campbell of Airds

"At page 83, the author says that ANE ACCOMPT got confused about Helena"saying she was a daughter of a son of the Earl of Lennox; in fact, shewas almost certainly the daughter of John (Sir) Monteith, Robert Bruce'sformer enemy and then loyal supporter, "


I believe that the John (Sir) Menteith whom you list as Keeper of theCastle, and as the father of Helena Menteith, who married Colin (Sir)(Lord of Lochow) Campbell, is the same person whom you list also as both(1) John (Sir) (of Rusky & Knapdale) Menteith, father of Joan Menteith,who married Malise 7th Earl of Strathearn and as (2) John (Sir) (ofRusky) Menteith, whose daughter Joanna Menteith married Sir Maurice (9thEarl of Strathearn) Moray and became the mother of Joan/Joanna (ofStrathearn) Moray. The name of John (Sir) Menteith lives in infamy inScotland because of his role in turning William Wallace over to theEnglish. SP 6:132 makes clear that John (Sir) was possessor of the landsof Rusky and perhaps also of Knapdale. His son, John (Sir) Menteith,married Ellen, daughter of Gratney, Earl of Mar, and their daughterChristian married Edward (Sir) Keith of Sinton, by whom she had adaughter Janet, wife first of David (Sir) Barclay of Brechin, and secondof Thomas (Sir) Erskine. The SP article says that Joanna is the only oneof the daughters of the earlier John (Sir) Menteith who can be tracedwith certainty. She was married first to Malise, seventh Earl ofStrathearn, second to John Campbell, Earl of Atholl, and third to SirMaurice of Moray, created Earl of Strathearn in 1344, by whom she had adaughter Joanna, married first to Thomas (Sir) Moray of Bothwell andsecond to Archibald (Sir) Douglas, 3rd Earl of Douglas.

In THE RED BOOK OF MENTEITH, by William Fraser (1880), at page 460, it isstated that, in addition to Joana, who married two of the Earls ofStrathearn, there was another unnamed daughter who married Archibald(Sir) Campbell of Lochaw. This unnamed daughter has been identified byAlastair Campbell of Airds, in his HISTORY OF CLAN CAMPBELL, Volume I,(2000), at 83, as Helena, who married Colin (Sir) (Lord of Lochow)Campbell, and who was almost certainly the daughter of John (Sir)Menteith. When you consolidate all three of these John (Sir) Menteithsinto one person, I suggest that you might want to identify him as ofRusky, since his being the keeper of Dumbarton Castle, to which he wasappointed in 1304, leading to his role in the capture of Wallace in 1305,was only one of the activities in his career. He no longer commanded thefortress after 1307, and became a firm supporter of King Robert I. In1320, he joined other Scottish nobles in the famous letter to the Pope inwhich they defended the right of their king and sought the Pontiffssupport on behalf of peace with England. Later, he was sent to Englandas one of the envoys who, in 1323, negotiated a treaty of peace withEngland, which endured for 13 years, and under which England recognizedScotland as an independent kingdom.


From Douglas Hickling, Dhhic@comcast.net, 516 Blair Avenue, Piedmont, CA94611. 1 February 2002

SP=THE SCOTS PEERAGE was edited by James (Sir) Balfour Paul. 9 volumes.Volume 1 published in 1904 and volume 8 in 1911. Volume 9, before 1925(includes the index)

CP= THE COMPLETE PEERAGE
Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain & theUnited
Kingdom : by G. E. Cokayne (Hardcover - March 2001]

Walter + Maria Countess of Menteith. Maria (daughter of Mauritius (Maurice) 3rd Earl of Menteith) died before 1286. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

or Mary

Notes:

For a listing of web sites that have the genealogy of family lines ofroyal houses, many noble houses and more, go to the entry "INFORMATION,Royal Houses family lines web sites" in this file.

Information on Royal & Noble families has come from many sourcesincluding:

"Burke's Peerage" (popular name).
Burke's Peerage & Baronetage 106th Edition, editor in chief CharlesMosley.
Published by Burke's Peerage (Genealogical Books) Ltd., 7 rue du Bugnon,1299
Crans, Switzerland. 4122 776 5109 (Fax 4122 776 0889) (Owned by Morris
Genealogocal Books SA.)

and

BURKE'S Genealogical and Heraldic History of the PEERAGE BARONETAGE
AND KNIGHTAGE.
Founded 1826 by John Burke and Sir Bernard Burke.
Edited by Peter Townend. Burke's Peerage Limited, London
"Burke's Peerage" popular name.

Also information from
Burke's Landed Gentry. Burke's Peerage Limited, London

THE COMPLETE PEERAGE
Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain & theUnited
Kingdom. Extant, Extinct or Dormant. By G. E. Cokayne. 2000,SuttonPublishing Ltd, Gloucester.


Debrett's Peerage and Baronetage,
Comprises Information Concerning the Royal Family, Peerage and
Baronetage. ISBN: 0312125577
Debrett's Peerage Ltd., 86/88 Edgware Road, London W2 2YW
For further information on Debrett's
e-mail people@debretts.co.uk
Phone # +44 (0)171 916 9633.
http://www.debretts.co.uk/index.html


Directory of Royal Genealogical Data
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/
Peerages in Order of Precedence
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/peerage.html
Master Index to royal Genealogical Data - ordered by lastname
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/gedx.html
& the older version
Author: Brian Tompsett
Royal and Noble genealogy Copyright (c) 1994 - 1999
This contains a huge amount of information including a great deal
on British Peer's lineages. And Royal families of the many countries
Plus various ways to search the database.
This is part of Royal and Noble Genealogical Data on the Web at
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/gedcom.html,


Royal Genealogies -- Menu
http://ftp.cac.psu.edu/~saw/royal/royalgen.html
The site has a huge amount of information. By:
Denis R. Reid
149 Kimrose Lane
Broadview Heights, Ohio 44147-1258
Internet Email address: ah189@cleveland.freenet.edu
(216) 237-5364
"You may make this Royal GEDCOM available available to
whomever."...


"Britain's Royal Families" The Complete Genealogy. Alison Weir, 1996.Pimlico. Random House.

Walter + Beatrix of Angus. Beatrix (daughter of Gilchrist 4th Earl of Angus and Marjory of Huntingdon) and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Died:
Muireadach died before January 1234, when his successor appears with the comital title for the first time.